Landowner Rights Denied By Moratorium      NY: 5 Years, 8 Months | DRBC: 4 Years, 11 Months

Author Topic: Question: Why does a large group of mineral owners need a Land Service Company?  (Read 8038 times)

leviely

  • Posts: 108
You can leave freely if you get a better payday.  That is the point! Free to join and free to leave.
What makes people think that forcing people to stay in a group will result in more money for each?

You are way behind the times when it comes to doing business in the Utica Collingwood in particular.  It has been posted previously:

Send an email to fwmiller46@charter.net provide whatever information you want about yourself but this is not necessary -- it just helps the group know who you are.

Ask for an application and instructions.  The instructions will be sent to you.  When I received my copy it simply asked me to take ucorg@att.net off my spam notice so the actual application would get through.

An application is filled out for each owner, owner group, and plot of land.  [Frankly I am not to clear about that because I am the only owner.]

The form is done in a simple form of Express.  It takes minutes to fill out.  Names, phone numbers, emails, and property ID codes listed on one's tax form.

Email it back and you are a member once the information checks out.  No cost!

Keep in mind that I am not a member of any of the leadership groups so I not sure this is how they would have phrased it but this is how it worked from me.

Also remember you really should own your mineral rights.  They tell us that many people wanted to join thinking they had their mineral rights because all they thought they sold was the Antrim.  This has been beat to death --- but the nice land men failed to tell them that the few dollars they received for the Antrim also bought every other super rich formation below it.  Of course it was all there in those super easy to read and simple to understand lease contract but somehow 90% of the mineral owners missed it.  Some here have written that a person must be stupid not to be able to read and understand a legal lease contract.  Well then I guess I am fully stupid!  Those contracts read like mud to me!  Thank the Lord they have legal services one can go to.  I advise doing so!

By the way -- I would have missed it to but I didn't sign for several weeks and accidentally heard this was the case.  I went to an attorney and he told me that the bulk of the population signing these leases were being fleeced.

DSWIS

  • Posts: 2077
  • Vilified
Good job Leviely...you stayed focused and on subject!  handclap Thank you for getting to some answers and taking a breath this time around.  headpat

I would hope you continue to post substance as some of the meeting discussions come back to mind.

DSWIS
« Last Edit: May 09, 2013, 07:26:58 PM by DSWIS »
Vilified

horseshoe

  • Posts: 2
My family has leased our properties out for over the last 30 years.   This has been a mixed experience for us.  Over the years we’ve grown cautious (and a little smarter) in dealing with landmen and gas companies.   Oil/Gas companies and landmen are in it for profit and are masters at manipulating  landowners to sign leases that benefit them.  Our family has researched options including negotiating and hiring our own attorney, as we’ve done in the past.  We concluded that joining a volunteer landowners group is most beneficial and have joined the Hillman group which is now formally named the NORTHERN MICHIGAN MINERAL OWNERS COALITION (NMMOC).  .  The reason we joined is that it is a grassroots group of landowners (some of whom were part of an earlier, very successful group) who have joined together to pool their knowledge and talents.  This group is doing it right.  They’ve elected a board and a committee of volunteers.  They are in it for the right reasons and that is to protect landowners and work as a group to negotiate a good lease.  My family has spent a small fortune on attorneys over the years.  The good thing about a group is that it will cost very little for attorneys fees and other expenses (most likely pennies on the dollar).   Last year we almost signed a lease and surface agreement.  Even with all our experience, the deal sounded great and we almost went for it.  Thankfully, we hired an attorney and avoided a financial disaster.  Unfortunately, with the renewed interest in gas and oil in Michigan, landmen are seeing an opportunity for them and have begun forming their own groups.   One landman I’m aware of has come up with a new strategy with leasing by forming his own “informal” group.  He claims not to be profiting and is just out to help his neighbors.     Anyway, my point is that mineral rights owners need to research their options and use every caution even when joining a group.   Landmen act as a middleman and therefore need to realize a profit for themselves and the oil company.   
Here are some contact emails, names and phone numbers for information:
Frederick W. Miller II
Email fwmiller46@charter.net
Phone # 636-209-4404
Membership Applications are requested by emailing ucorg@att.net
The information required for application is quite simple.  Perspective members provide their legal names, the property description ID, acreage available for lease, phone number, email and address.  Membership is totally free and no one is required to remain in the group if they do not believe it serves their needs.
Seriously it is very hard to find a reason why anyone in Northern Michigan with mineral rights wouldn’t jump at this opportunity. 

DSWIS

  • Posts: 2077
  • Vilified
Thank you and welcome to this Group of forum chatters here in MI, horseshoe!   :D

We have debated this group here as you most likely have read on this site. We do welcome any and ongoing updates to events and just standard discussions within NMMOC

DSWIS
Vilified

leviely

  • Posts: 108
Thanks Horseshoe.  I was up at Jacques for breakfast this morning and ran into a few other members.  They said things are really starting to blossom.  They told me that there is work on a new website.  I find NMMOC a little difficult to explain in brief.  I do like the new name Northern Michigan Mineral Owners Coalition.  It is quite descriptive.

Maybe you could help me.  When I try to explain all the things the coalition is doing I find I fall short in the effort.  People seem to have a misconception that it is a group of mineral owners out looking for bids but it is so much more than that.
One point a friend of mine made is that it also serves as a master list of individuals interested in leasing.  When one thinks of it that is pretty smart.  How else would landowners with similar interests figure out so easily who in their area has similar interests?

Most people on this site already realize that working alone we are all going to be taken advantage of. 

But it also serves as a point for the oil industry to work more directly and efficiently with mineral owners friendly to the idea of development.  I was told that the NMMOC has already had several preliminary feelers from the industry.  I suspect that right now the oil industry is trying to figure NMMOC out but we know that several other states already have identical groups doing the same thing.  These groups got started several years ago and all their members think it is a good thing and working out well for them. 

I think that across Michigan there are a number of small 7,000 to 10,000 acre groups attempting to negotiate contracts.  Hopefully these groups will wise up and throw in with NMMOC.  The discussions around town are that the end vision is for NMMOC to represent several million acres.  NOW that would represent power.

Another point that most people miss is that NMMOC is a permanent organization.  The concept is for members to stay involved for years and for the group to oversee compliance to contracts and auditing of royalty production compliance. 

This just what we need but how does an inarticulate old fool like me help get the word out?  It is clear to me that anyone that doesn't register with NMMOC is missing the boat.  I mean think of it.  Name one thing one has to lose by joining.

hobojo

  • Posts: 567
leviely, Just my opinions...The only way I can see this NMMOC group working is that there is a formation under every acre of land in Michigan that has proven extractable hydrocarbons in economic paying quantities. Its my opinion, its that message that is driving this NMMOC vision.


leviely

  • Posts: 108
Yes you are correct to a significant point.  There are two formations the Utica and Collingwood that underlie a very significant portion of Northern Michigan.  I have now attended multiple programs on this held by the DEQ, other geologists and the Michigan State extension.  It is a simple fact that for most mineral owners in Northern Michigan any and every drill hole that bores down about two miles will hit one or both of these formations nearly 100% of the time.

To the second portion of your comment whether these will yield proven extractable hydrocarbons in economic paying quantities remains to be seen.  One must assume that not all will.  That fact however does not change the thesis.

Oil companies are dead set on drilling a good portion of Northern Michigan in order to find out.  Thus we need NMMOC just as much as states like Kansas and Texas need their state mineral owner organizations.  We are just behind the times and thinking too colloquially.

So I have to ask you hobojo.  Which part doesn't make sense to you? I agree that were in not true that Michigan sits on top of these large ancient ocean shale formations that cover about 60% of Michigan in the case of the Collingwood and 80% in the Utica a state wide coaliton would make less sense.

And we know that this is not the end of it as there are more formations below that and as the world's hunger for oil and technology improves we may see drilling to these other formations.  And last of all the Niagran reefs pop up now and again across Michigan and the NMMOC programs cover that as well.  But the driving force, as you indicate, are these large formations that lie below most counties in Northern Michigan and even down to Detroit.

I suggest that you contact the NMMOC and let them send you some of the geology tutorials. 

hobojo

  • Posts: 567
My concern is the group is only being told 1/2 truths....and the other 1/2 perhaps is being conjured up by the groups unrealelistic expectations.

Example.... The Utica and Collingwood shale formations cover a large portion of Michigan. That is true, but what is not true is the fact that the Collingwood is not a shale. It is a rich hydrocarbon (Limestone) rock... the Utica is a shale....Which to date as far as I can ascertain is not producing any hydrocarbons in the state of Michigan. Not all shales are the same, or will they produce hydrocarbons.

Will take your suggestion and contact NMMCO. Again thanks for your response, leviely

Garvin

  • Posts: 209
What if a company only wants to lease one 40 acre tract adjacent to its current holdings, and is willing to pay $5,000.00 an acre for that one parcel? If that landowner is a member of this group, does that mean he is not allowed to work out his own lease between himself and the company, foregoing a $200,000 payday in order to remain part of a group? Or if he signs, does he have to cut checks to every other member of the group?

Or, let's just say he does decide to drop out of the group. Does that put him in any kind of danger of being sued by this huge entity for violating the terms of membership?

I'm still completely stumped by this particular group. No one I know in the industry has heard or dealt with anyone associated with them. This same kind of thing was spoken about back in 2010 as well. Maybe some of you guys would know better than me, but I don't thnk any leases were signed for any big landowner groups then either... Why didn't that work out?

I'm perfectly willing to eat my share of humble pie over this whole thread, but until then I'm just gonna go ahead and continue to play devils advocate. Consider it "free consulting".
« Last Edit: June 10, 2013, 08:41:29 AM by Garvin »
>>>LANDMAN<<<
There - Their - They're

DSWIS

  • Posts: 2077
  • Vilified
Actually Garvin this is some of what I asked conditionally in this thread. But you have touched on some other interesting points as well. The suit issue hits you hard in the heart with a lump in the throat. I thought I heard earlier in the discussion on some Attorney expertise within the group.

I know attorney expertise is something we at times secure to scrutinize terms. But I also know if involved in the groups structure language, attorney direction may have incorporated such group protection.

I also keep asking myself if this is better then apple pie....why is there not a WEB based link for this group in order to get the word out? Garvin, please don't eat that whole humble pie on your own, I may need a piece myself!  headpat

Maybe if we can have someone gather many of these unknown's and write this email to pose these questions or ask that a organizing member, identify & post to that affect. As we have asked in the past, I may add.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2013, 09:00:56 AM by DSWIS »
Vilified

pyro-1955

  • Posts: 762
Now, do not shoot the messenger or in this case the guy asking the question, however:  Would it not be an interesting feat if a group formed claiming to be pro drilling and mineral use, get hundreds of thousands of acres of owned minerals signed up, then to everyone's dismay, find out that they are really an Anti group tying up all this acreage to prevent it from being drilled???  Unfortunately I've grown very skeptical based on the many ways our own government has been screwing us all over, therefore, other than being in a group of landowners focused on a group of sections, or a Township etc..  I'm thinking I'll stay informed and negotiate my best deal.  For some reason, I just do not have a complete warm and fuzzy as to the directive.  I hope I am wrong, and that all involved do well, it just seems that typically the Oil companies only want certain areas and not a huge widespread mass.  Maybe if it was a group that was not tied to committing ones mineral rights but getting people together to be more informed and united when the oil companies come knocking....

hobojo

  • Posts: 567
pyro 1955.....a while back on this same subject I threw out the term "Trojan Horse" this is precisely why I used this term.......Just been waiting to see if I was alone in my thinking. Must be true great minds think alike.

DSWIS

  • Posts: 2077
  • Vilified
Did some 'Data Mining'   ::) out on the WEB using the noted Fred Miller of the Hillman Group noted in some post and articles in discussion in Hillman with MSU.

Now I don't claim that these two entries to the name are one in the same, but sure got me wondering??
Miller well - #12-4
http://ww2.deq.state.mi.us/GeoWebface/GeoWebface/WF/007/49171_WF.pdf     :-\
Vilified

pyro-1955

  • Posts: 762
Interesting, will be interested in seeing how this may play out... 

Hobojo, I'm just skeptical, learned from my own former family, can't trust anyone anymore, can not take anything at face value.  While the group sounds like a great idea, unless they split it up into regional groups making the plays a reasonable size that an E&P or an Oil and Gas Co could reasonably develop within the time frame of the lease, they will never sell, which may be the goal of the leaders....
« Last Edit: June 10, 2013, 11:56:52 AM by pyro-1955 »

hobojo

  • Posts: 567
 I would love to hear what their marketing plan is. They surely must have one. One of the first things that should have been discussed before going ahead with this venture.

 


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