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Author Topic: Buying solar panels with your bonus money  (Read 21393 times)

mohawk70

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Re: Buying solar panels with your bonus money
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2013, 01:13:16 PM »
With your tinker ability to indulge in new technology. I am surprised to your doubt of corporate ingenuity to develop & surpass the road to improvement for solar energy.

Solar will commence to the hurtles and shortcomings you project in our life time.
http://www.gizmag.com/ibm-solar-collector-reaches-80-percent-efficiency/27256/

Install one  yourself.


This is your chance to show us how it's done.


[LMAO!!!!]

[Did you actually read the article?!!!!!]

[Read the comments, as well.]

LMAO!!!



[their big mistake was in showing us the snapshots]


[oh, i'm sorry; going to get an early start on lunch ... maybe several beers to fortify myself for the afternoon.]


[good one .... tears to my eyes ]

Nor did you read my comment! I believe I said "corporate ingenuity". Suggestion was that corporate would overcome the financial disparity in the future, not me as you would put it, Tinkering!
Cheers!  ;D


 "corporate ingenuity".

bureaucratic.

self-contradictions

oxymorons.

total fiction.

invented up from nothing.

scientific fiction.


also known as "made up".

LOL

LMAO.

« Last Edit: July 28, 2013, 01:22:21 PM by mohawk70 »
Please remember:  The planet Earth is a VOLCANO.   You cannot "save" a volcano ... and volcanoes do not NEED to be saved.

DSWIS

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Re: Buying solar panels with your bonus money
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2013, 02:19:04 PM »
Mo, that sounds just like the bureaucracy over at the local Nuclear facility pulling decommissioning funds from my bill!  slaplaugh

Berkeley

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Re: Buying solar panels with your bonus money
« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2013, 04:21:14 PM »
Thanks Backcountry. Please keep us posted on your experience with them. I understand the costs have come way down in recent years. Another thing i notice is that people who make their own power are much more conservative in how they use it, just like people who grow their own vegetable are much less wasteful.

mohawk70

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Re: Buying solar panels with your bonus money
« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2013, 06:53:24 AM »

Quoted from Mohawk70  ,  my comments are in bold

With solar, the device shades the ground.  The devices will not shade the ground if they are on your roof and shading your roof is actually beneficial to the life off asphalt shingles

With solar, you need to clean the surface frequently. The locals that I have contaced never clear their panels

With solar, you need an "energy storage device".  The only one that works is batteries.  Yeah, yeah, yeah, they have other kinds, but all of them are gee-whiz devices that don't actually work in real life.   Batteries require maintenance.   And "management".   They last ~ three years.The storeage device is called the power company,  you will earn a credit on your bill that can be used in months with less sun

With solar, you need a whole control system to regulate the output.  As with ANY electrical project you need a control system to regulate the output,  I call them breakers

With solar, if the wind is too strong, the panels may/will break loose and damage the panels and the structure they are / were attached to.  Buy good panels from a contractor that know how to attach them to your roof



With wind and/or solar, if you are near salt water, they will [not may, will] be "damaged" by flying salt spray in stormy conditions.   "Damaged" = ripped loose and gone.   Flying salt spray is not only corrosive but also causes the effect known as "sand blasting".   Some of the "damage" is so severe that folks don't even have a name for it.   Flying salt spray also causes electrical short circuits.    A LOT of civil structures exposed to flying salt spray are made from your normal steel and concrete; they SHOULD be made from the high grade steel(s) used in ship building.  [Worked on that stuff, too.  The Navy called me at home to go and fix some of their stuff.]

I don't know if you noticed that I posted my comments on the Pennsylvania forum,  quite a long ways from a salty body of water

I am sure at least the Navy finds your opinions invaluable.



No, what it is, is that solar and wind installations are a lot more complicated and expensive than most folks think.

But, please, go ahead ... go for it ... show us how it is really done.
Please remember:  The planet Earth is a VOLCANO.   You cannot "save" a volcano ... and volcanoes do not NEED to be saved.

Backcountry

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Re: Buying solar panels with your bonus money
« Reply #19 on: July 31, 2013, 01:12:40 PM »
Ok, this is how you do it Mohawk,
Go to the Dep website and find a contractor who qualifies for the Sunshine Grant at http://files.dep.state.pa.us/Energy/Office%20of%20Energy%20and%20Technology/OETDPortalFiles/GrantsLoansTaxCredits/Solar/approved_pv_installer_list7_15_13.pdf
Pick a couple,  ask for references,  talk to friends and strangers who have panels,  decide on a contractor.
Personally,  I picked a 10kw size to mazimize my sunshine money.

So here are my numbers.  the system will cost me $39,789 but then I will get $11,936 back from the fed on taxes for Federal Renewable Tax Credit,  $7500 back from the Pa sunshine grant for a cost after federal and tax incentives of $20.353.00.  I am expected to save $1073 a year in electric bills and may get about $500 a year in SREC credits. for a ROI of 13 years assuming the cost of electricity does not go up.  Assuming the price of electricity does go up,  my ROI will be shorter.  (This 10k system maybe a little more expensive then many people because of some trenching that will need to be done because of where I want the panels.)

And one nice thing to remember about saving money on your utilities.  If I have to spend $1073 on my electric bill,  what I really have to do is go out and earn at least $1500 and then pay tax on it and then pay the utility company.

So what I was hoping for in this investment is to keep me from having to be a Walmart greeter in my retirement to pay for my electric bill as my gas royalties decrease over the life of the well.

Rockdale

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Re: Buying solar panels with your bonus money
« Reply #20 on: July 31, 2013, 01:38:58 PM »
Ok, this is how you do it Mohawk,
Go to the Dep website and find a contractor who qualifies for the Sunshine Grant at http://files.dep.state.pa.us/Energy/Office%20of%20Energy%20and%20Technology/OETDPortalFiles/GrantsLoansTaxCredits/Solar/approved_pv_installer_list7_15_13.pdf
Pick a couple,  ask for references,  talk to friends and strangers who have panels,  decide on a contractor.
Personally,  I picked a 10kw size to mazimize my sunshine money.

So here are my numbers.  the system will cost me $39,789 but then I will get $11,936 back from the fed on taxes for Federal Renewable Tax Credit,  $7500 back from the Pa sunshine grant for a cost after federal and tax incentives of $20.353.00.  I am expected to save $1073 a year in electric bills and may get about $500 a year in SREC credits. for a ROI of 13 years assuming the cost of electricity does not go up.  Assuming the price of electricity does go up,  my ROI will be shorter.  (This 10k system maybe a little more expensive then many people because of some trenching that will need to be done because of where I want the panels.)

And one nice thing to remember about saving money on your utilities.  If I have to spend $1073 on my electric bill,  what I really have to do is go out and earn at least $1500 and then pay tax on it and then pay the utility company.

So what I was hoping for in this investment is to keep me from having to be a Walmart greeter in my retirement to pay for my electric bill as my gas royalties decrease over the life of the well.
>>>> Tapping into an inexhaustible source of energy certainly has an appeal to many.  And it is enlightening to see your figures for a system you are contemplating.  From my viewpoint I think it's best to look at the whole cost which is some $40,000 of public/private money for a system which at current electric rates will save a bit less than $1100 a year, which works out to a return on investment of 2.75%  I always have to wonder when people lay out the figures for investment and savings what the cost of maintenance and repairs is likely to be.  Unless somebody is very handy and can do most any repairs them self as well as get parts at a knock down price I think even fairly small repairs could cost a lot, and a major breakdown of any kind would be likely to more than wipe out a years' savings very quickly.  And as in your specific example the public will be making an investment of almost $20,000 for a supplementary source of electricity for one home, as well as having to subsidize the system as it operates over the years.  In these times when governments at all levels are financially strapped for the most part, I think the ability to subsidize private electric power systems is fairly limited.

Backcountry

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Re: Buying solar panels with your bonus money
« Reply #21 on: July 31, 2013, 01:52:47 PM »
The maintenance and repairs should be minimal because there are no moving parts and the panels themselves have a 25 year warranty.  As far as spending private/public money on my investment,  have you even heard of global warming?  Maybe the govenment does have to sweeten the pot to make it easier for me to help reduce carbon emmissions.  Do you think I have my hand out trying to grab some of that money?  You bet I am

Berkeley

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Re: Buying solar panels with your bonus money
« Reply #22 on: July 31, 2013, 02:30:45 PM »
It would be nice to have an all electric home and no electric bill. I wonder what that might add to the property's value.

Rockdale

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Re: Buying solar panels with your bonus money
« Reply #23 on: July 31, 2013, 03:27:04 PM »
The maintenance and repairs should be minimal because there are no moving parts and the panels themselves have a 25 year warranty.  As far as spending private/public money on my investment,  have you even heard of global warming?  Maybe the govenment does have to sweeten the pot to make it easier for me to help reduce carbon emmissions.  Do you think I have my hand out trying to grab some of that money?  You bet I am
>>>> I would think that given the amount of direct subsidy money involved with each solar installation that the government's help is greatly dependent upon the fact that relatively few people ever actually install such a system for their home.  As to the subject of global warming/climate change, it is rather difficult to avoid the subject these days.  There has definitely been a great deal of progress made since our country is now putting out the same amount of CO2 each year as it did 20 years ago when the population of the United States was about 60 million people fewer than today.  But I believe that the vast bulk of that improvement is due to various changes in our energy supply system, most especially the substitution of natural gas for coal, rather than the use of wind and solar.

Berkeley

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Re: Buying solar panels with your bonus money
« Reply #24 on: July 31, 2013, 05:27:10 PM »
The maintenance and repairs should be minimal because there are no moving parts and the panels themselves have a 25 year warranty.  As far as spending private/public money on my investment,  have you even heard of global warming?  Maybe the govenment does have to sweeten the pot to make it easier for me to help reduce carbon emmissions.  Do you think I have my hand out trying to grab some of that money?  You bet I am
>>>> I would think that given the amount of direct subsidy money involved with each solar installation that the government's help is greatly dependent upon the fact that relatively few people ever actually install such a system for their home.  As to the subject of global warming/climate change, it is rather difficult to avoid the subject these days.  There has definitely been a great deal of progress made since our country is now putting out the same amount of CO2 each year as it did 20 years ago when the population of the United States was about 60 million people fewer than today.  But I believe that the vast bulk of that improvement is due to various changes in our energy supply system, most especially the substitution of natural gas for coal, rather than the use of wind and solar.

Yes, that is true looking backward. There is also the option to look forward 100 years. We cant wait til year 99 to do it all.

bob0usa

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Re: Buying solar panels with your bonus money
« Reply #25 on: August 01, 2013, 04:09:54 AM »
DSWIS,

The article was interesting and touches on something I recently learned about the effeciency of a solar panel being reduced with higher temperatures.  I assumed that your highest producing day would be June 21 but actually a cool sunny day in May will out perform a hot sunny day in June.  Thanks for your post.

I also have found that this is true!

Thanks Backcountry. Please keep us posted on your experience with them. I understand the costs have come way down in recent years. Another thing i notice is that people who make their own power are much more conservative in how they use it, just like people who grow their own vegetable are much less wasteful.

At least we ARE trying! Most folks talk about it, and that's about as far as it goes!
Also we learn to be a  lot less wasteful! an all electric home is a waste of engery!

As far as battery back up, this 3 to 5 year guess, is wrong! most of them will last 10+  years because of charge controller (not over charging), and inverter not allowing batterys to drop below 20% discharge(10.5 on a 12 vdc system), which helps maintain the battery life.

mohawk70

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Re: Buying solar panels with your bonus money
« Reply #26 on: August 01, 2013, 04:29:10 AM »
Ok, this is how you do it Mohawk,
Go to the Dep website and find a contractor who qualifies for the Sunshine Grant at http://files.dep.state.pa.us/Energy/Office%20of%20Energy%20and%20Technology/OETDPortalFiles/GrantsLoansTaxCredits/Solar/approved_pv_installer_list7_15_13.pdf
Pick a couple,  ask for references,  talk to friends and strangers who have panels,  decide on a contractor.
Personally,  I picked a 10kw size to mazimize my sunshine money.

So here are my numbers.  the system will cost me $39,789 but then I will get $11,936 back from the fed on taxes for Federal Renewable Tax Credit,  $7500 back from the Pa sunshine grant for a cost after federal and tax incentives of $20.353.00.  I am expected to save $1073 a year in electric bills and may get about $500 a year in SREC credits. for a ROI of 13 years assuming the cost of electricity does not go up.  Assuming the price of electricity does go up,  my ROI will be shorter.  (This 10k system maybe a little more expensive then many people because of some trenching that will need to be done because of where I want the panels.)

And one nice thing to remember about saving money on your utilities.  If I have to spend $1073 on my electric bill,  what I really have to do is go out and earn at least $1500 and then pay tax on it and then pay the utility company.

So what I was hoping for in this investment is to keep me from having to be a Walmart greeter in my retirement to pay for my electric bill as my gas royalties decrease over the life of the well.


FORTY THOUSAND DOLLARS!!!!!!

You gotta be kidding me.



[oh, yeah, right, then there's all those makebelievecredits


I don't think so, Tim.

AND ... plus ...

All that paperwork and space age electronics ... to save $1000.



Oh yes, oh yes, ... but then I get you, my kind generous  fellow citizens, to pay me a subsidy from YOUR taxes.

A HUGE SUBSIDY

So, I subsidize you and you subsidize me.

Right.

Except, the government is now spending twice as much as it is taking in.

The government takes in $5 billion per day and spends $10 billion per day.

No, that doesn't sound right.


YGBSM.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2013, 04:43:02 AM by mohawk70 »
Please remember:  The planet Earth is a VOLCANO.   You cannot "save" a volcano ... and volcanoes do not NEED to be saved.

mohawk70

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  • Posts: 10592
Re: Buying solar panels with your bonus money
« Reply #27 on: August 01, 2013, 04:32:38 AM »
Ok, this is how you do it Mohawk,
Go to the Dep website and find a contractor who qualifies for the Sunshine Grant at http://files.dep.state.pa.us/Energy/Office%20of%20Energy%20and%20Technology/OETDPortalFiles/GrantsLoansTaxCredits/Solar/approved_pv_installer_list7_15_13.pdf
Pick a couple,  ask for references,  talk to friends and strangers who have panels,  decide on a contractor.
Personally,  I picked a 10kw size to mazimize my sunshine money.

So here are my numbers.  the system will cost me $39,789 but then I will get $11,936 back from the fed on taxes for Federal Renewable Tax Credit,  $7500 back from the Pa sunshine grant for a cost after federal and tax incentives of $20.353.00.  I am expected to save $1073 a year in electric bills and may get about $500 a year in SREC credits. for a ROI of 13 years assuming the cost of electricity does not go up.  Assuming the price of electricity does go up,  my ROI will be shorter.  (This 10k system maybe a little more expensive then many people because of some trenching that will need to be done because of where I want the panels.)

And one nice thing to remember about saving money on your utilities.  If I have to spend $1073 on my electric bill,  what I really have to do is go out and earn at least $1500 and then pay tax on it and then pay the utility company.

So what I was hoping for in this investment is to keep me from having to be a Walmart greeter in my retirement to pay for my electric bill as my gas royalties decrease over the life of the well.


No, no, no, no ... when I say "show us" ... I don't mean ... as in "tell" us .


I mean show up and bolt the whole thing together.   Show us.

Not "tell us".


Plus, ... have you actually read any of those tax rules and regulations?


Plus, I have to have a space age control room to manage the system.

All this to save one thousand dollars.



And ... just to get technical ... the 13 years is not "ROI".

The 13 years is what is known as "the payback period" ...   

[ ... you do not make ANY savings or ANY profit until AFTER the end of the payback period ... ]


 ..... [ and, by the way, 13 years is terrible ... wayyy too long ...  as a payback period.]

[In real life, you want a very short payback period ... because there are WAYYY too many uncertainties ... bad things that pop up.]

[In real life, you want a payback of less than four years.]

And, if your batteries go kerflouey, then major big bucks of expense for replacements ... IF you can get the right matching batteries.    How long will the batteries last?   3 years?   5 years?  10 years?    And even so, regardless, you can't actually use the bottom 20% of the battery capacity ... like having a fuel tank but you can't actually use 20% of the fuel.

If, using your number, the payback period is 13 years and if the batteries start to fail in 3 years or even with luck last for ten years, then you are going to have to start replacing your equipment LONG BEFORE the savings pay off the initial investment.

So a very bad bad bad lonnnng payback period starts to stretch from 13 years to 20+ years or worse.

Basically, with the numbers presented, it will be at absolute best, at least 13 years before you ever get to see even one penny in energy savings.

Most likely, the costs will begin to start to build up ... replacement parts, maintenance expenses and effort, and the thing will just go more and more underwater.   There never will be any savings.

It will be nothing more than a really expensive hobby.   Fun to show off to your friends.   


"ROI" is  "return on investment"  which is utterly totally absolutely different from "the payback period".

ROI is expressed as a percentage.

There are whole books written on stuff like that.

This is a neat book, "Wall Street Words"  by David Scott.

And the classic "Security Analysis Principles and Techniques" also known as Graham & Dodd.   [Graham, Dodd, Cottle, Tatham]


So, but, please, please, please, the first thing is to quit making up new, strange, and unique definitions of words.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2013, 05:15:15 AM by mohawk70 »
Please remember:  The planet Earth is a VOLCANO.   You cannot "save" a volcano ... and volcanoes do not NEED to be saved.

Backcountry

  • Guest
Re: Buying solar panels with your bonus money
« Reply #28 on: August 01, 2013, 05:54:29 AM »
Mohawk,

My system will have no batteries.  Not sure how you got on that rant.

I copied the term ROI and the dollars figures in my previous post from my solar proposal.

I don't think some DC/AC converters,  a meter,  and an ethernet card is exactly space age technology.  Did you say the Navy calls you to fix things or was it Nasa?  I can't remember.

Yes,  I will gladly find and use any tax incentive I can to reduce my tax burden,  reduce my utility bills and reduce carbon emmissions.  I would appreciate Mohawk if you would please pay your taxes on time to help facilitate this.  Thank you in advance for your cooperation.



donegal

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Re: Buying solar panels with your bonus money
« Reply #29 on: August 01, 2013, 07:15:45 AM »
Mohawk,

Yes,  I will gladly find and use any tax incentive I can to reduce my tax burden,  reduce my utility bills and reduce carbon emmissions.  I would appreciate Mohawk if you would please pay your taxes on time to help facilitate this.  Thank you in advance for your cooperation.

Hmmm....usin' tax incentives to reduce my tax burden.....Me, I jus' use bendin' the rules. Certainly can't speak for the Hawkster, but MY goal is to get to ZERO Emissions from my WALLET and  pay as little taxes as possible. Besides, I can't even afford help for myself, let alone givin' some of it to the Government so's they can skim off 20-100% for their own wages, perks, retirements & then redistribute the leave-overs helpin' others as they see fit.  Still, each to his own. Just WISH  they'd leave me alone when it comes to printin' up some "funny money", but then I don't make the rules. slaplaugh

Rootin' for Green Energy too, jus' wishin' the cost was like the resource....self-sustainin' ;)
Donegal
We finally scuttled the Exxon Valdez (for the second time in her life), and turned in at the boatyard the ol'  gray Bismarck before she sank too..  Now I'm Captain of the most beautifulest boat ever, the "HMS HOOD", a 2012 stealth black AWD V-8 Chrysler 300.

 


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